The Asia Society Presents #35
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A.
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Asia before flying to the present.
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This is a series of interviews with experts on Asian affairs designed to
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strengthen our understanding of Asian people and ideas. Your
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most on this transcribed series is the noted author on the ward winning
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broadcaster league Graham. Here now is Mrs. Graham.
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We're often given the advice to know ourselves better. In order to create
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our understanding of the world around us. For this some of
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the books turn to religion various ways in which you know ourselves better.
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But I think if we want to know ourselves better we might very well take the advice of the man who was our
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guest on this edition of the ages society presents because his suggestion is to
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know the rest of the world better particularly the culture of the Orient
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because in Asia where civilizations are and where much wisdom
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has been presented if we draw upon what has taken place
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centuries ago we might find great relevance to what we are experiencing
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today. Having this will. Become more apparent as we go along in this
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program. I'd like to tell you that our guest is a man who
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were singled out for his contribution to Asian studies in this country in His name
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is William Theodore did that right. But there's a debate of this cop and a
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professor of Oriental Studies at Columbia University. And it is under his
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direction that Columbia College has assembled what many people feel is the finest
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undergraduate Oriental Studies program in the nation.
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Professor De Baron has traveled in Asia five or six occasion. He has a
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new book coming out may be out already in fact by the time you hear
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this and the book is called self and society and Ming thought.
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Dr. Berry is this something that you knew quite early in your life in your
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studies that knowing more about Asian thought particularly Chinese
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thought would bring us an insight which somehow we wouldn't have without it.
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I don't think that I realize that when I. Started the study of China
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and the Chinese at that time I was simply curious about what was going on in
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that part of the world in the thirties. There was considerable interest in
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China. And in the revolutionary changes that were
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going on there. It was simply that kind of curiosity
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to understand the contemporary world which led me into it in the first
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place. But the further I got into it the more I realize that
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one. Had to study Chinese history and
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civilization and some depth before you could make some kind of sense
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out of the contemporary world. And in order
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to understand China then one had to understand the Chinese and why
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they are. How they became what they are and
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what their own values are. In other words I think
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it's clear to many people today that we've often made great mistakes in
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understanding our adult people. And trying simply to
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evaluate their. Actions according to our
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standards. And we had to try to understand better what their motivations were what
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their values were. Why they created the
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kind of society that they did. And it's and I
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think in the course of trying to understand that that I became more and more interested and.
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Particularly this period of. Chinese
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thought and history just before the.
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Entrance of the West. Into Asia.
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And. In trying to.
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Understand their political problems their social problems. I became more and
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more involved in the study of their.
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Philosophy and religion provided them with the basic values from which they tried to
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deal with these political and social problems with really startling to read just
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that little I have about the problems which people experienced
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in that Ming Dynasty time of Chinese civilization
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which I believe runs on the late late 14th century too about the need Seventeenth
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and there the people experience the rebellion. Do you need men walked
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round and camped with their clothes in a pretty sad state of disarray.
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There was a sense of nation. There was a loss of Neuve on the part of
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political officials. And the final takeover by the Manchus in the mid seventeen
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hundreds. I hope you're not drawing too clear a Pownall between that time
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and this time.
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Well I'm not trying to use this as a basis for any kind of predictions as to the
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future but I think it is helpful to see the problems that they
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confronted as a very mature civilization
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that in the 14th the 15th century had this experience.
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The relationship of the individual to a state and to a social
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order that he was not able very readily to change
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or influence. In other words the individual helped.
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Oppress. Help great pressure from. You know what
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we would call the establishment. And particularly
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the class that had provided the political leadership in China the
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Confucian educated scholar. Felt himself very
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greatly a strange from the kind of. Despotic
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state that asked for his service.
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Many of them faced a great dilemma in deciding whether they should
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fulfill their obligation for public service by
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joining the government and trying to improve things. Or whether they
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thought it was so hopelessly. Characterized
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by. Coercion and corruption that he had to completely
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disassociate himself from it and withdraw to the life of a teacher
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and.
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A scholar. That's what's so sadly familiar. We hear that the
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best men don't run for public office in our country because they can't put up a decent
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man again. They don't have the money for the campaign and they feel that they have is nothing
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but well corruption eventually and they don't want to be a part of it. You know
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it just rang so many bells to read about this time in China.
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It might be well then to observe that there is
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probably a significant difference in that in China of that time there
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were fewer opportunities than in our society for advancement
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of the the what were the possible vocations for an
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educated man were relatively limited as either official
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service or teaching.
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Business was not considered a worthy occupation for
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a true gentleman or a member of the educated elite.
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So that in our society you do
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have many more options therefore you do not feel quite so
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intensely I think. The radical alternatives that are presented
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to you.
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Yes it's true you don't have given up completely. You don't want to end a public office because there
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are many opportunities for public service such as the Peace Corps.
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Urban coalition and other groups where people can work without too much bureaucracy
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interfering with him. Still the fact that these parallels
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do present themselves between that period the Ming Dynasty and our own
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will is alarming but it need not be could simply be enlightening. You
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feel that the Oriental Studies programs not only that Columbia
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but which exist in other universities and colleges are. Giving
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broadening outlook to two Americans something they
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couldn't have had before.
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Oh yes I. I think they do. In many ways Quest making them
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aware of.
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The possibilities for different social arrangements and
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different approaches to problems that tend to persist in human society.
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I think the more mature we become as a society in a civilisation
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the more crowded our society becomes the less the less
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elbow room we have. And the more we're going to confront the
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same social problems that the Chinese and the Japanese and Indians
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have confronted and we will probably be forced in upon ourselves to a
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much greater extent. Now the Post
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post-war preoccupation with the self.
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I think it is one indication that we are perhaps
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entering a phase somewhat similar to that of the Ming Dynasty where.
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Already by that time the great metaphysical systems
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that had been prevailed were giving way to a much
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more pragmatic kind of existentialist kind of
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thought and where the individual was.
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In the middle of a great deal social change and changing social values
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finding himself. Unsure of what
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his role in society was what values should be
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and then confronted with this highly organized highly
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efficient and in its own way state that was established by
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the Ming. He was forced into a kind of
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introspection and self-examination and so forth
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that the confrontation with his basic values
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that I think we are going through and many of the values which have
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traditionally been assumed and not questioned.
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Are being questioned. A very radical way today and that the same sort of thing you
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see in 16th century China.
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Do you think that when people begin to question which I guess it's a sign if
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intelligence introspection but when they begin to question and that is
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accompanied by the freedom to do sell that that leads
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to dissatisfaction usually the dissatisfaction leads to a
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desire to change things that leads to revolution which can
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often take the form of anarchy. And then you begin to create a new dog
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agent everything that exists before has to be done all over again.
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I may be oversimplifying but you think that's almost and it's dog cycle which is
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inevitable.
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Oh I wouldn't think so I wouldn't think that I could. So as I say predict
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what the pattern might be. Certainly that it would not to accurately
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describe what happened in China. There was this kind of very radical questioning.
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And many of the. Characteristics of a pattern of
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alienation that we're familiar with. An alienation from
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society from a traditional culture and religion and so
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forth.
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But as I say they limit the options the alternatives
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were limited and
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therefore the possibility of effecting radical change if it were
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somewhat restricted. Certain people were
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ready to.
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Attempt this in many ways intellectually socially
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but they certainly were not able to effect
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any total change in the Chinese way of life. And
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you have had a change in dynasties a change in the.
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Ruling group power passed to other hands
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and there was a very difficult transition for most people to make.
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While that was going on it was a violent process. But what ensued
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was not all that different from what had gone before. And in that respect you see it would
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have more relevance to an understanding of communist China where
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you had this revolutionary change very violent and drastic and so
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on.
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And one might have thought that it was going to produce something extremely different from what had gone
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before. Yet the fact is it's not all that different.
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Well that was the point which I hope to make clear perhaps I didn't. That the
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dissatisfaction is followed by the change often a violent disruption. But
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what ensues if you point out is not that different. And it's still a lot of time and energy
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wasted towards achieving something which is more like the same as people had in the thing
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although I think part of the problem in the making and perhaps also today is that
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when you get this violent protest.
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And rebellion against the existing order there is the danger
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that their food does not. It is not
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organized and led in some disciplined way that it threatens the society with
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chaos with anarchy. The one thing that most people cannot
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stand is the threat of anarchy.
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They react against the majority cannot stand it but a strong
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might even say a courageous minority would welcome it. And they can
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be forceful enough can they not make the majority about killing.
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I mean it was not due to the chaos
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which the majority didn't think it wanted but is helpless to do anything about once it takes place.
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Well I think perhaps outwardly that might seem true.
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And so there will be a change at least in the personnel. And
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This program has been transcribed using automated software tools, made possible through a collaboration between the American Archive of Public Broadcasting and Pop Up Archive. Please note that no automated transcription is perfect nor is it intended to replace human transcription labor. If you would like to contribute corrections to this transcript, please contact MITH at mith@umd.edu.