Voices of Europe Dr. Gerrit Jan van Heuven Goedhart
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Voices of Europe Milton Mayer American author and lecturer
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broadcaster and professor of social research from the University of Frankfurt has been
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traveling throughout many of the countries of Europe recording the voices of ordinary people on a
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great variety of subjects. These are Europeans who are alive and
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sensitive to the tragedy and dilemma of the conditions that surround them. These are
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ordinary people who can speak directly and candidly of their own feelings and their own
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aspirations to help us to understand the basic conditions of life in Europe
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and to help us understand the views these people have of their own problems.
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Today's programme recorded in Geneva Switzerland deals with the problem of the left
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over people that stark term which defines Europe's refugees.
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To learn about the refugee problem what it is how it came about and what can be done
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about it. Milton Mayer interviewed Dr. G J event who haven't go dark.
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The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. Doctor go dark
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formally a newspaper editor by profession gave up his position when the Nazis took
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over his paper during the invasion of Holland in hiding he took up the editorship of an
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underground newspaper which today is one of the largest newspapers in the Netherlands.
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Doctor good heart by escaping to England by way of Belgium France Spain and Gibraltar
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in 1944 became minister of justice of the Netherlands government in exile.
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Then after the war a member of the Netherlands Senate and vice chairman of its
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delegation to the United Nations and finally High Commissioner for Refugees.
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Here is Milton mair.
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Doctor good heart. We in America.
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Well we are a people stablished by refugees
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in the 17th century and the later are not too well
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acquainted with the refugee problem as it exists in the world
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today. I'd like to ask you I know that
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I'm asking you to talk for three hours instead of for 30 minutes.
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I would like to ask you to tell our listeners what the
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refugee problem is in the world today and how it came about.
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I think that it is fair to say that we could really talk at great length about
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definitions of refugees and who want to go forth but debt I'm
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afraid would not interest the many people who are listening to this broadcast
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every roarer and every TENS unit in the world produces refugees that
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is people who feel that they cannot bear any longer the
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regime in a certain country and who therefore leave behind
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everything which they love and beauty is dear to them crossed the
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borders and walked into a completely unknown future. That has happened after the
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First World War has happened after the Second World War and it happens
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still every day and it will happen as long as the world is
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divided as it is in the present Hering is the refugee problem.
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Growing. No I wouldn't think it grew but it's certainly good.
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There's a good many people living under the impression that the refugee problem
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is a problem which can be don't really exist any longer did.
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That's not true.
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I think perhaps that we in America to the extent that we are well acquainted
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with the modern refugee problem.
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Think of it in terms of the German refugees from
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Nazi ism and since Nazi ism has been
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destroyed we tend to assume that the refugee
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problem in large measure has been solved.
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I wonder Dr Goodheart if you would in a quick
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glance of the world and especially of Europe give us a
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picture of the refugee problem as it exists today.
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Well then I would be obliged to bore the listeners with some
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figures for instance. In Germany you will find today roughly
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200000 Norman German refugees 25
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percent of whom that's 50000 still live in camps in seven years.
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You know Australia would find roughly 300000 60 to 70000
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still in camps. All those people are not belonging to the category
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would you just mention it today you would have 25
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30000 refugees the same number you find in Greece you find
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scattered groups in the Middle East and in the Far East and all of
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them are I would think refugees in the proper sense of the
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term that is people who have left mostly to commune East countries
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to do the regimes of which they couldn't bear it any longer and who are now seeking asylum
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in what we call the free world.
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DR go hard. What of the category that we know of as
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displaced persons.
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I think of persons who were shipped out or sent
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away from the countries of their origin or nationality. Are they included as
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refugees in your sense of the term or under your responsibility
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as they are they are. Yes there is the
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refugee a man by and
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large who is as capable of taking care of himself
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under normal conditions as the rest of the population
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among whom he finds himself or is he likely to be a
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person who by virtue of the terrible shock of the experience he has
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undergone is he likely to be a charge upon the general
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public.
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No you certainly are not likely to be a charge of the general public I would even say that the
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fact that the man took step courageous step to cross the border of his
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own country to abandon his own land and everything which
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he had there distinguishes that man to a certain extent.
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And makes him an asset for any country where he would come to know of
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course there are many cases where such a cross to go
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to border with all its backers but psychological consequences has the
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effect of something of a shock to him and that he may then for a time or
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even for a very long time be this able to do a job then
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he is a man who lives under normal conditions.
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Moreover I would like to add these that according to my mind
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one of the main difficulties for refugees is that
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they just look what all of us consider to be quite natural that is the
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particular of a government refugee has no government he is a man who
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looks on the United Nations for being predicted as he does not
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qualify where every is foreign to same amount of particulars which you national of
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any country that enjoys from his own government.
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Dr. Gold Heart What can the United States the United Nations
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High Commissioner for Refugees do actually do
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for the aid. How many refugees are there in the world.
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Well that's the last point is very difficult to the Red Cross has made an
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estimate last year that there would be something like 60 million refugees in
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the world.
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There are let me in Iraq there are how many human beings in the
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world. Well I don't blame you I don't know two
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two and a half billion something like that I would think.
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And there are 60 million resurrection claims I don't take any
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responsibility for that figure however I think that we better talk about
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with whom I'm concerned and that's somewhat in the bracket of two million and two
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minute Yes two million what are you supposed to do about them and what can you
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do about them that what can you not do about them. Well I think that
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what we try to do is mainly for different things one is
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to protect and that is to see to it that the events you today
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have some papers or soup different gateways which they can
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qualify for all those benefits and things which normalcy does in a
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country would like to qualify for let us say to get a stamp to
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be allowed to cross from two year old to a country where you live and come back to the country again
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that often.
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Now let me interrupt. Are you legally. Is the United Nations legally
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in a position to provide refugees with such papers which are
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valid across borders national borders.
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No not directly but the United Nations have organized last
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year a conference which has brought about to go to invention on the status of
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refugees. Do dick still which is attached as an Enix
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travel document for Refugees which will replace the travel document which is a
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couple of you know is already in existence the so-called Devil document.
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And what we do is to try to get governments to sign that convention that
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by undertaking the obligation to provide refugees because with
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such a dreadful document when a government signs this obligation doctor god heart
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is it then bound.
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To provide these persons with travel documents of the sort you mention are let us
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say to recognize the validity of such documents.
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Yes I omit for the moment the difference between the signature I dreaded and
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ratification of a convention of course only after rectification of the convention. The
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obligations exist but then real obligations of government having already fried to
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go invention is obligated to provide refugees in its territory as far as they
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are within my mandate was a travel document as I referred to just a few moments ago.
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Dr Gone heart of the governments which are members of the United
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Nations. How many are there altogether.
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56. No 60 60. How many governments have
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ratified this convention for refugees.
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It has not been ready for it yet by any government but 19 countries have signed it
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already and many countries are or have presented it already do that parliaments for red for
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red if you have good hopes that within a couple of months to convention
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will come into force that will happen after six states have ready fight it.
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Last news about this is that the Holy See which takes a
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very keen interest in the problem of refugees has decided to sign that convention.
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Being the 19th state to do so the Vatican than it is the 19th
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St. it's right to sign the convention. That's right. And ratification However by
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the parliaments of those states must follow for this convention to be
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binding.
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That's is the United States one of these governments which has signed the United States has not signed
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to go invention because the United States I think with regard to merely
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conventions have a different go there that according to
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the view of the federal government a convention which
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is the country to state to do various things cannot be
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ratified or signed under the states
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themselves would have accepted the obligations of the federal government takes
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the view that it cannot impose the obligation to go inventions
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to various states and that is why even although the convention contains a
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so-called federal clause the federal government of the United States so far
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have not seen that way to say it.
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Let me bring you closer home. That is to my home Doctor good heart.
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The United States is a relatively
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rich nation and not very heavily populated.
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It is of course in some areas in still other areas I believe for
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instance in the state of Montana which is one of our fairly
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large states. There are only half a million persons.
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There is space in the United States. There is wealth in the United
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States.
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Do you feel that the United States has a particularly heavy
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obligation to face the refugee problem let me
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interrupt you before you answer and I ask you
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where the obligation to solve or
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tackle the refugee problem or originates where does it
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come from. Why am I as an American you as a
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Hollander Why are we obligated let us say to pay
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higher taxes in order to help take care of a man whose
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difficulties are no fault of ours.
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Well if you put it that way you make it pretty difficult for me to own so
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because if it is a foregone conclusion that the three year are
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not guilty of any of the aspects of the situation under which people
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become refugees I really would have some difficulty in
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This program has been transcribed using automated software tools, made possible through a collaboration between the American Archive of Public Broadcasting and Pop Up Archive. Please note that no automated transcription is perfect nor is it intended to replace human transcription labor. If you would like to contribute corrections to this transcript, please contact MITH at mith@umd.edu.